In the Spirit of Seatco: Interview with Henry Franzoni

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Does Bigfoot exist? And if so, what is it? Pioneer researcher Henry Franzoni has chased the mysterious apeman for many years. In 2009 blogger DB Donlon had a lengthy and fascinating conversation with Franzoni. They talked about weird Bigfoot experiences, the Bigfoot Research Project, the NASI study of the infamous 1967 Patterson/Gimlin film, Indian place names and their connection to the phenomena, and Nikola Tesla and alternate energy sources.


This interview was originally published in 2009 on Donlon’s now defunct Blogsquatcher website and is reposted here with Donlon’s approval.

I spoke with Henry Franzoni on a multitude of issues relating to bigfoot, or as he calls them, Seatco. Henry has a lot of very interesting things to say and we covered a lot of ground. In a lot of cases I’d probably pare back the interview to hit the highlights, but really, it’s mostly highlights. So I’m inclined to run the whole thing. But it’ll take a long time to get it all up. For one thing, I’m not finished transcribing it!

But be forewarned — Henry’s views of the bigfoot phenomenon are not your garden variety views. He has a very idiosyncratic viewpoint built up over years of personal experience, and also though interacting with various PNW Indian tribes. I know that some of what Henry says and thinks will be very hard for most bigfoot enthusiasts to swallow. But I hope you’ll read through it all and get a feel for where he’s coming from.

And even though we spoke at length, we still didn’t have time to uncover all of Henry’s thoughts. But, if you want to know more, you are in luck, because Henry does have a book wherein he lays his theories plain: In the Spirit of Seatco. I’ve just finished reading the book and I found it very interesting indeed. A lot of it, I have to admit, went over my head. I’m not an electrical engineer, nor anything close, so there were some gaps in my knowledge that prevented me from getting a firm grip on all of it, but what I did understand seemed to come together into a world view that would, if Henry is correct, not only allow for bigfoot to have „Puzzling Powers,“ as he calls them (following Rupert Sheldrake), but would even explain how they have these abilities.

I’m pleased that Henry has decided to come forth with his ideas at this time. The recent death of Erick Beckjord left the paranormal position without a clear champion. In Henry Franzoni, whether he wants the mantle or not, they have got not only a champion, but a clear thinking, science-minded advocate who actually bothers to try to make sense.

I know that will throw some people, because they already know about the invisible bigfoot and the starter motor. But just wait until you see what a starter motor has to do with Nikolas Tesla and his alternate theory of electricity.. and how that would relate to bigfoot and their puzzling powers. If you were writing a mystery, you couldn’t put it together better.

But that’s to get ahead of the game. First and foremost, as you will see here, Henry will talk about his research connecting sighting reports and geography.

So let’s get to it.

Henry: Hello, this is Henry

DB: Well hello Henry, this is DB!

Greetings!

Yes, good to talk to you.

Likewise. What would you like to talk about? Bigfoot? I mean, I want you to know that I would be happy to talk about any bigfoot related topic whatsoever.

Well, my discussions are often wide ranging, so we might get around to any and all! (laughs) But I wanted to start with some things that I read in your book. Now I’m only about 50 pages in so far..

Okay, that’s alright. Thank you! I’m glad you read 50 pages! I hope you liked it.

I did and I’m gonna read the whole thing, so don’t worry about that. And it’s fascinating because the way that you were.. now I’m not very scientifically minded at all. I come from a Liberal Arts background. I was an English major. So I know a little bit about science, but just by reading it in the popular books and magazines. So I don’t come to it from the side of applied science. So, you know what I mean? I read..

I do. Later in life I got hijacked into science. It was post college. I was always interested in it somewhat, but I was actually a history major in college.

Huh!

American history.

Very interesting.

I styled myself as an historian. But I’ve always had abilities in science. And later in life, after bigfoot, I became a professional scientist, and ran large wildlife monitoring systems for the federal government.

Right, I remember hearing you talk about that on one of the talk shows you were on.

Yeah, basically I was.. and believe it or not, today, ‘cause I’m unemployed right now, I just got an interview with the state of Oregon to basically run a tagging program on the coast.

Uh huh!

So I have an interview for another wildlife position, which, well.. let’s just say that if I wind up in a wildlife position for the government again — and I’m getting an interview, and I’m applying for them!

(laughs)

..I may have to keep very discrete about bigfoot.

Right, yeah. Well I certainly understand that.

Down the road. I may have to.. we’ll have to see. It just goes with the territory. It’s part of why I.. there are many reasons why I left for ten years, but that was one of them.

Well, let me ask you.. this makes me think of a question that we often ask people who are in government. Do you ever get any overt pressure not to talk about bigfoot from somebody?

No. No one takes it seriously. It’s a laugh.

Right.

All my scientific colleagues laugh. My role was as the computer guy. ‘Cause what’s happened in biology, in a nutshell, is that they have so much data now. I mean they have clouds and clouds of data. So that doing biology involves, especially quantitative biology, the reduction and analysis of an unbelievable amount of data.

Uh huh.

For example, the study I was part of tagged three million fish with transponder tags and then followed them for their entire lifetime through a network of antennas that were placed at every mainstem dam in the Columbia river, and it’s tributaries, and a fishing trawler towing an antenna array out in the mouth of the river. And the amount of data that came from this giant network of antennas and three million fish over ten years — you can imagine how big these databases were.

Yeah.

And so the government got the idea that what they needed.. they had always tried to train a biologist to handle these massive data problems. And finally they said, you know, why don’t we just get a hard-core computer guy, and we’ll train him in biology? And I just happened to stumble along at that moment as a hard-core computer guy. I had developed software and hardware and things for twenty years. And I wanted to change my career. And they said, well, you’re just what we need! And it actually worked out. They taught me biology from nothing. I was not a biologist. I brought to the table a whole bunch of advanced data analysis skills.

Uh huh.

And design skills for building huge regional networks and things. And so it all worked out really well for everybody. That’s how I kind of, backwards, fell into science. And so eventually I wound up getting more and more involved in fish and wildlife monitoring, doing a lot of stuff for US Fish and Wildlife, and the tribes. A lot of tribes. And so.. I don’t know how we got totally into that, but oddly enough, it was bigfoot that led me into that.

Well that is interesting. But of course you were helping out with Peter Byrne and Glickman.. there was science involved in that, or at least that’s the way it’s presented..

Yeah, we — you know, the true story has probably never been told..

Well let’s tell it!

(laughs) of what happened with the Bigfoot Research Project.

Yeah!

We got funding. Peter Byrne is a master of bigfoot funding. Whatever you think of him, whether you.. you know, some people disparage him. I have always been fond of the old man myself.

Uh huh.

He got paid more to look for bigfoot than anybody ever. I still think he holds the funding record! (Laughing)

Right!

He has.. through the Academy of Applied Science in Boston, which is actually the outfit that funds Robert Rhines. We got five million dollars to look for bigfoot in 1993 — Peter Byrne did. I met him then, got hired to — well not hired. There was a paid staff, there was a project, and I was put on the board of advisors.

Ok.

Which was a board of esteemed old men! (laughing)

Uh huh. (laughs)

Mostly! Anyhow, one thing that we did was a Patterson film analysis. We voted and hired Jeff Glickman and his company, Photek, to do it. And we paid Patty Patterson $20,000 to take her copy of the Patterson film from the safety deposit box that she has it in and digitize it. And at that time, in 1993, we digitized it in New Jersey at a place that restored old films.

Right.

Each 16mm frame of the 953 frames of the Patterson film we digitized to 2480 pixels by 1800, such that each image was 35Mb. We stored it in the RAW data format with no compression whatsoever, and put it on CDs eventually.

Wow.

Anyhow, Glickman did this really incredible analysis that has passed from history without much notice. In my opinion it’s one of the most scholarly things that’s ever been done in bigfoot research. We really endeavored to do straight science. We tried Glickman, we tried to pay scientists to come. Glickman at the beginning was a complete skeptic. And our whole premise was, “Prove that this is a guy in a gorilla suit. Find the zipper. Find something that proves it’s a hoax.”

Right.

So we approached it from the negative, and he was unable to do that. Which, as bigfooters, we have to say, hey, that’s a positive!

Yeah!

We spent $500,000 of other people’s money paying Glickman and Photek to do this. Even back then Glickman made a motion-stabilized version of the Patterson film.

Oh yeah?

It was shown at the 1998 University of British Columbia Sasquatch Symposium. And that seems to have vanished from memory also. He actually took all the jiggles out of the Patterson film way back then.

Huh. That has been forgotten, because everybody credits MK Davis with doing that. And there’s even been a more recent one that I just saw that, I think, the Discovery channel did. So they’ve all forgotten about the one that you guys did back in 1998. Which was probably higher quality because of the way you used up all that memory digitizing it.

Right. And we paid, like I said.. we also got one of the first copies of the Patterson film as our source by giving Patty Patterson $20,000.

Right.

We paid René Dahinden $10,000 for the rights to use thirty stills from the Patterson film in a paper. But Dahinden was really anti-scientist. I mean he had a long hard road in life with scientists so he really despised them.

Yeah, that’s the reputation he’s got.

So he specified.. his contract for that ten grand specified, although we could publish a science paper, and distribute up to.. 300 copies was, I think, at that time the limit. We could not publish it in a peer reviewed journal. It was forbidden to actually publish it in any scientific journal in the contract with Dahinden. He wouldn’t sign it otherwise.

Wow.

So that’s something that I think MK Davis didn’t have to deal with. I hope!

Yeah.

That’s the thing — one learns this about the world of bigfoot. The wheel gets reinvented over and over because the ones that come before are forgotten very quickly. A new generation comes and there’s, you know, for whatever reason, or no reason.. it’s like pop music or something. Once you’re off the stage, that’s it!

I’ll tell you what I think the reason is, and this is actually one of the purposes that I set up my blog, and that is that there is no community of.. You know how scientists, they not only have to publish, but they have to talk about what other people did before they came along. You can’t just publish your stuff, you also have to make reference to everything that came before. That has never happened in bigfoot research. And I’ve been trying to get people interested in looking back and remembering what has come before, and trying to make it more of a scientific discipline, even though I know that it’s not, and it’s not going to be any time soon. We could at least start to build in some of the structures that scientific disciplines have. And if we did that, one of the things we’d get out of it is we’d stop forgetting what other people already did. We’d know it.

Very interesting. Because there were others before me too, you know, I was a part of Peter Byrne’s third project. In 1993. There was a flurry of activity in the early 70s in Oregon.

Yeah, he wrote about that one in his book, so we have some of that history.

Right. So, yeah, there are some long histories that are interesting. And of course there was ‘58-9, ’67 Bluff Creek, you know, there’s been different periods where there’s a flurry of activity.

Right.

There are people, a lot of times, like me — one of my rules back in the day was, that you could accomplish anything you want so long as everyone else takes the credit.

Uh huh.

That’s how I operated. And so I really saw my role back in the ‘90s as empowering people. Because we had the money! And really my job on the board was to vote on who got the money.

Right.

That was really my job. And I was only paid occasionally an honorarium. But they helped me out. For example, they bought me the Geographical Names Information System on CD back then in 1993.

Uh huh.

Or maybe it was like ’96 when they bought it for me. So they helped my research. But that was what we were doing, helping people’s research.

Yeah.

We weren’t doing the research as much as funding it. No, I take that back, we were doing it. We had a 1-800 bigfoot number. We had a team. We investigated 438 sighting reports in Oregon and Washington. We assembled a database. We had a very early GPS, accurate to within 300’. So we went and marked all of the points with GPS, all the sighting reports. And we interviewed all of the people. And we had a lot of gear.

Right.

Like modern guys. In many ways, it seemed to be a dream that I inspired others to live, in part. You know, the thing that I did then, where I had a website and I was appearing in movies as a narrative character — I made six.

Yeah?

We had a snowmobile, and a helicopter with a FLIR on call..

Really?

Yeah, we had all kinds of gear. Hey, we had money! (Laughs)

(Laughing) That makes me want to ask, did you ever catch anything on a FLIR?

Nope. Never.

See that’s still happening now. You would think that would be one of the most useful devices, and we rarely get anything solid or credible from a FLIR..

Isn’t it interesting that it’s so hard to get a picture of these guys?

Well, it’s very interesting, and eventually we will get into some of that..

Yeah, it’s so hard to get a picture. Um hmm!

Absolutely!

We did a whole science thing, and.. there was really a lot of political stuff going on at the time in bigfoot research, like today.. But, really, I was on a different tangent than everybody else. Because I kind of came to bigfoot because I was trying to find out about Indian things. And I went down the direction, even then, of chasing after.. Like what my book is about..

Right.

Some people, like Dr. Robert Pyle. saw — I gave him my notes early on and he appreciated my contribution to Where Bigfoot Walks.

Uh huh.

And you’ll see that I have.. I was always a peripheral character, like he mentions me in his book, Glickman mentions me in his paper. Glickman also uses my Indian place names stuff in his paper a little bit because he saw a lot of it back then too.

Uh huh.

However, I didn’t share it publicly very much back then. In fact I got to the point where I said, “Nah, I’m not going to share this.” And I see in the intervening decade, no one else really went in that direction, so.. anyway, it looks like it’s new today!

Yeah. Well, you know, I did hear the, “Look in the Skookum places.” I heard that from.. it was either Matt Moneymaker or someone else. I’m not sure who said it. But it was a very offhand and informal thing when they said it. Some people remembered it. They weren’t publishing it, but they remembered what you had said.

Matt Moneymaker is someone that I think I.. Well actually Matt may tell you himself that he looked at me and the mistakes I made, and then he invented the BFRO as an improvement.

Uh huh.

Learning from the mistakes I made.

Right.

That’s what he says! (Laughing) I think that’s his opinion. Or perhaps that could be corroborated one day by him, if he cared! But the truth is that I too learned from my mistakes. But my solution was a different one than his!

Yeah.

And I really never had the same dream as Mr. Moneymaker. I’m really happy for him that he was inspired to pursue his dream and has made considerable headway. But I never shared that with him. I really was much more interested.. call it selfish — all I really wanted to do was understand for myself the weird experiences I was having with bigfoot.

Right.

That’s really what it has all been about for me. I didn’t want to.. even though I had created at that time an organization and a website and a bigfoot discussion group and all those things, I wasn’t really interested in that at all. I wasn’t interested in persuading the masses, or persuading institutional science to take it seriously anymore. I gave it a real good try for five years with the Bigfoot Research Project. Our goal was to persuade policy makers and scientists to take it seriously and to, in fact, provide funding for scientists to pursue inquiry and experimental stuff.

Well let me ask you — when the five years were up, did you have enough evidence that you thought that they should have been persuaded?

You know, that’s an interesting question. No! I would say no. What I had after five years was a really solid understanding that experience never rises to the level of scientific proof.

Right.

And what you basically have with the bigfoot phenomenon is a whole lot of experiences. You had a whole lot of sighting reports, and you had a whole lot of footprint finds and casts..

Uh huh.

A couple of hair samples, which still appear to be inconclusive, even though they’re getting closer to getting.. maybe one day they are going to get a DNA thing, you know, hey.. However, really, scientists say that anecdotal evidence is not evidence at all. It’s no evidence. And so, since you just have all these witnesses, you really don’t have.. and this is an interesting thing — you really don’t have a science problem is what I say.

Yeah.

What I came to at the end of five years was, I said, well, these experiences will never rise to the level of scientific proof. It’s just too easy to say that the witness is mistaken, or he was drunk, you know, all the standard things — it was really a bear that was misidentified, or a moose, whatever. The thing is you wind up in a place where you realize it’s a dead end to pursue certain things, because you say, if they’re a dumb animal, then of course we can do this science. If it’s an ape, then we can do this science, and we’re just studying an ape and we’re, like, trying to get close to the apes.

Uh huh.

But if it’s an intelligent person-like being. A creature that’s like a person. Then we’re not engaged in science, we’re engaged in an intelligence operation. We’re gathering intelligence about a phenomenon that is under intelligent control.

Yeah.

So to presume that they are intelligent, like you and me, then you have to presume that you really can’t do science on them because.. you can’t get them into a lab, first of all. You can’t prove they exist, second of all. Can’t get a photo! That’s hard. And they are apparently intelligent enough to evade pursuit for at least fifty years.

That’s right.

Year after year, they continuously evade us. (laughing) So it looks like an intelligent, person-like being rather than an ape, to me.

Uh huh.

So I got to the point where I said, no, the sighting reports were “intelligence” on a phenomenon that is under intelligent control. It’s not an animal intelligence, I thought, after seeing what I had seen and chasing after this thing so obsessively for five years. I said, hmm, seems like they’re people, not apes. Seems like, sure, scientific principles can apply, and using science, when you can, can apply and help, but really you’re not going to be able to bring this into a laboratory and do an experiment.

Right.

And the one thing that you can measure of the phenomenon is the footprints. And there are scientist, such as Dr. Meldrum, who are all over that. And Dr. Krantz. Because that’s the one thing that you can measure about the phenomenon, that you can actually do some science on. There it is, an artifact in your hand.

Right.

Other than that, there’s not a whole lot of science you can do with the sighting reports. Although, when you look at them as “intelligence” you realize.. and that’s what everybody does anyhow. They get a picture of what bigfoot is by reading all the sighting reports, and seeing all the different things that happen, the things that people would go through in their experiences.

Well you have been able to do a little bit of science with the reports and the geographical data, in that, when you normalized it for populations.. and this, you know, since this is applied science, I get lost at right about this point, but you do something with the numbers, and that tells you where they are most likely seen, or most often seen. And that was a pretty interesting thing that you did. The fact that you did it with two different sets of data and got the same answer, and then you did it with the geographical names and got the same answer.. I thought that was pretty powerfully presented.

That was a.. I took a really good stab at trying to do science with sighting reports! (laughing) We also did that in 1998. Originally Glickman.. that was Glickman’s idea, originally. But he never had the data that was available after his time. Because he left the bigfoot world and went on to other things quickly.

Uh huh.

He did it for a rough approximation of America, I could do it for all of North America. He had, I don’t know how many sighting reports. Not that many. I, of course, Benefitting from today and the internet, have at least four thousand. You know, John Green, and the BFRO summaries.

Yeah.

The idea is really simple. It’s from population modeling. Glickman presented it more thoroughly, because there’s more than just these two probabilities, really, but.. There’s the probability of an observer being in the area — that’s us, people.

Right.

And the probability of an animal being in the area. There’s two probabilities, so you divide the probability an animal is there by the probability that a person is there, and you get an approximation of the animal population.

Uh huh.

Because what you’re trying to do is take the human observers out of the equation. You want to say, gee, if I have a lot of sighting reports where there are a lot of humans, I’m going to reduce that and say, gee, the chance of a sighting report is really high. Because there are a lot of humans there. So I’m going to normalize it and lower that. And in a place where there are hardly any humans, like in the Northwest Territories, and you have a sighting report, then, well I’ll normalize that too and take into account that there is only one human observer per five hundred square miles. It’s a simple idea. And when you look at it that way, and you look at these monstrous continental wide databases that way, you see that it looks like the population of bigfoot is mostly in the north, and the more north you go, the more there are. If you take the population of humans out of the equation, that’s what it looks like. Roughly. And I’m only doing a model that’s province by province and state by state, so it’s really crude.

Okay.

And yet John Green’s, and the BFRO’s data both show that. They show that it’s far more likely to run into a bigfoot above the 45th parallel than below.

Yeah?

There’s more of them there. There’s more humans below the 45th parallel, but there’s more bigfoot above the 45th parallel. The second thing I see in the data when you look at it that way is that the continental divides actually appear to be.. let’s say, when you rank all the provinces and states, and you look at the top ten provinces and states, the continental divide goes through eight of them.

Yes.

And that’s for both sets of data, so what I say from that is, well, it looks like more bigfoot are in fact around the continental divide. There are not that many people there. It’s very high mountains, and the Rocky mountains and everything. But there seem to be a lot of bigfoot there. This is just looking at all the bigfoot reports from the thirty thousand foot view.

Right.

But that also.. see, once again, we put that whole idea forward in 1996. We presented it in 1998, and no one pursued that line of inquiry since.

Yeah, that’s really surprising, because reading your book is the first I’ve heard of all of this..

We’re there again. There you go!

..all of the normalization of the population, and that there’s probably more of them north of the 45th parallel — yeah that’s surprising to me.

Yeah, Glickman didn’t take it to that conclusion. He didn’t come to the conclusion that north of the 45th parallel, or the continental divide like I did. But then he didn’t have hardly any data to use. I had the data.

Ok.

He used the back of John Green’s book, The Apes Among Us, for his data source. Because it had a picture of his state by state and province by province sighting total. And I think John Green only had about two thousand reports at that time. 1980. Because he used the 1980 edition.

Wow.

He really didn’t have what we have today. So, yeah. I know that no one ever took it all the way to the continental divide and the northward skew of it. I guess privately I had done that back then. By 1998 I had played with enough data to say, hmm, the continental divide.

Right.

And then every continent appears to be the same. You have the yeti found in Nepal, in the Himalayas, which is a continental divide. And the yeren and the tien-shan are found in the tien-shan mountains, which is the continental divide just north of that. And just north of that is the Pamir and the Hindu Kush, and that’s the continental divide there were the mande barung are found. And keep going north to the Ural mountains, still the continental divide, and the almas and almasty are found there. And in Australia, the Blue mountains are where most of the yowie sightings are, and that’s the continental divide of Australia. And then in South America.. I can never remember.. I just have a mental block about remembering..

(laughing) And I can’t help you so we’re just going to be stuck on that one!

The southernmost point of South America was named bigfoot. That’s how it translates. The state that’s at the tip of South America actually translates as bigfoot. That’s where Magellan, when he went by in 1565 or whenever that was, said he saw giants on the beach.

Yeah.

Yes. I just have a mental block about the name of that. But anyhow, my point is, it really looks like the continental divide in every continent is a favored locale for the hairy giants.

Right.

Yeah, at least to me. When you look at the data. So I’m glad I came back to bring this up again, ten years later!

Well now maybe people will catch on to it and listen and keep a hold of it this time.

But your project is such a wonderful idea, because we have to have some idea of what people have done, because there were some great pioneers before my time. People like Lee Trippett, who in the sixties were doing some really interesting stuff.

You know, I would say that’s a name that I’m not even familiar with. So I’m going to write it down!

Yeah, well he’s one of those — he’s a generation before me. In Oregon. He lived in Oregon, so maybe that’s why I know about him, ‘cause he’s an Oregon guy. But anyway, I find that the sighting reports are really useful for at least that overall thing where you can say, hey.. you know what this means to the bigfooter is, the place you’re most likely to see a bigfoot, you the individual observer, is probably in the continental divide in Alaska.

Yeah.

(Laughing) I mean if you wanted to go where the most of them were, that would probably be the place.

Well that’s interesting.

Yeah, you know.. and I wonder if the South Pole.. I’ve always wondered if it’s the same when you go south?

That is an interesting question. I wonder if there are enough sighting reports from South America to help us out on that?

You know, I wonder. Maybe one day. Or Indonesia, or Australia. Or New Zealand! New Zealand, I guess, is really South.

I know a guy from New Zealand, and he declares that there are no credible sightings from New Zealand, so (laughing) we may have to take them off our list! But Australia certainly has plenty of them.

Yeah. The yowie sounds like our guy for sure.

You know, I read the book The Yowie by Tony Healy and Paul Cropper. And when I was reading their description of the yowie, and the experiences that people have with the yowie, you know you could take that description and put it in North America with no problem at all. And that includes the weird stuff that happens to us, you know, where people feel like someone’s staring at them, or they get a feeling like, “I’m not welcome here, I gotta get the hell out of here.” They’re having those same things happen in Australia. And as far as I know, it wasn’t until, you know, the internet age, that people from Australia could have heard some of these things from people in North America. So the fact that they have these stories going back decades suggests to me that not only is the yowie and the bigfoot really there, but they must be related. They are not unrelated animals.

Yeah, I would hypothesize they are the same species.

Right.

It might be like humans, like the difference between an asian and an anglo.

Yeah.

It might only be that much of a difference. So it’s not a species difference, just different traits within a species. And, you know, we have no data! That’s the whole thing, we have no.. I’d be interested about the aborigines, if they too had yowie stories. I imagine they would.

Yeah..

The reason I bring that up is because the Indians here in the North West, many tribes, have a lot of really kooky stories about psychic powers and these guys. And a lot of those stories are really pretty old. They were written down in the twenties and thirties. Of course, they are from oral traditions so they are older than that.

Right.

And so I wonder if the aborigines.. I bet you they do, but I’ve never seen anything. I’ve never seen any collection of aborigine yowie stories.

Yeah.

I’d love to see those, Maybe Paul Cropper..

Yeah, there are some, at least a few aborigine stories in The Yowie. It’s a great book to read because it’s so well written, and so well organized, and they obviously researched it very well.

Now I knew Paul Cropper back in the day. Many years ago we used to correspond.

Oh, did you?

But I haven’t corresponded with him in a decade. As I recall, he was a fine fellow. He was a life-timer!

Uh huh.

Yeah, he was fascinated by this for a long time. But the Indian stories here fall along the lines of, they have tremendous hypnotic powers, and they can kill game with their hypnotic power. They can knock you unconscious with their hypnotic power.

Right.

They can even take control of your body. Many Indians here tell stories about how they are basically possessed — these guys take control of their bodies and make them walk near cliffs and things like that. There’s Indians that say that. Indians have been seized control of and just marched right off a cliff and killed.

Would you like to hear something very interesting? You may have already read about this because it just recently hit the news. I think it’s the military that is experimenting with this. There is a way of using ultrasound. Now this is not infrasound, which bigfoot people have been talking about for years, but ultrasound. If used at the proper frequency, will actually get through your skull and it affects your brain. And they are looking into ways of making people do things with ultrasound. Just with a sound! And ultrasound is so focusable, it’s so easy to focus ultrasound, that you can make a device that would control just one person. So you aren’t broadcasting to everyone and they all have to do something, you could just be focused on the one guy there. And that’s with just a sound.

Wow, I haven’t heard of that. That’s interesting.

Yeah, it kind of blew me away too. And they also have shown that exposure to ultrasound can cause some of the same things that people report when they have a bigfoot experience. Such as thinking somebody is staring at you.. And they’ve certainly used ultrasound to take sound and beam it to one person so no one else can hear it, but that one person hears it and can’t really tell where it’s coming from. So a lot of that stuff that they were talking about, we’re getting close to being able to accomplish. Now we can already do the beaming of the sound to a person thing, some of the other things, like controlling someone just via sound are on the drawing board. Now people have hypothesized that bigfoot, because they are so large, might be using infrasound. But I think this ultrasound thing is even more interesting, because we’ve always had the problem with the self-luminating eyes. Which I don’t know how it sounds to you, but to me, doesn’t that just sound like it’s got to be a paranormal creature of the night? (laughs) I mean, nothing else has self-luminating eyes. But I went looking for explanations for that and I found out there’s a certain kind of shrimp that can make light in salt water through the use of ultrasound. So what you need is ultrasound and a solution of salt water, and then you can make light. And that might explain self-luminating eyes.

Interesting theory!

Yeah, it’s just a theory, but.. (laughing)

I have my own theories about those things, but that are a little different, but.. You know it could be ultrasound. I think that the bigfoot can focus energy with their minds. And I think that applies to sound energy also.

Well that might be what we mean, but we didn’t even know before we understood about..

See, that’s the thing.. let me tell you — I’ll give you a personal experience.. This is the kind of experience that I had, which led me down the road I went, because I knew that whatever was going on was pretty hard to understand.

Ok.

I was driving with my wife, in a van, and we were way high in the Cascade mountains at night, about midnight, when suddenly the, you know, classic bigfoot smell overpowered us.

Hmm!

Like a wet dog, but like a skunk, really sweet and pungent, I mean just this incredible smell in the air.

Right.

We stopped, and I didn’t see anything. There was nothing in front of us. It was pitch black. My wife looked at me and said, “Geez, you know, I’m tired. I’m just going to take a nap.” And she just laid down and fell asleep instantly.

Uh huh!

I.. the hair on my body.. you talk about the feeling of being looked at. Well, this was like that feeling on steroids. Because what happened to me was that all of my hair, and I had hair that was about 4” at the time, stood up all over like you rubbed balloons over my head and held them over my head. My hair stood straight out 4” in all directions, like Einstein’s hairdoo.

(laughing)

This huge afro pointing in all directions. A huge static charge was.. I could feel my skin tingling while this static charge overwhelmed me. And this static charge was more than just electrical.

Right.

I mean, certainly it felt like static electricity, my hair was standing up. It felt like it was aware, and I could feel, like, a mind probing me.

Uh huh.

And it was way, way, way more than the feeling of being looked at, it was the feeling of being scrutinized under an electron microscope.

Hmm!

And the electrical field was so strong that it blew the starter motor of my van.

Wow.

So, this lasted for five minutes, and the whole thing went away. The electrical field went away, and the smell went away. I still never saw anything. And yet I couldn’t start my van because the starter motor had been fried by the electrical field.

Uh huh.

Now, that’s not ultrasound! (laughing)

No..

That’s electricity of some kind.

Yeah, it has to be.

That’s some kind of electrostatic field that really seemed to emanate from this bigfoot that I never saw. I mean the only hint that I had that it was a bigfoot was the smell, and the location where I was.

Right.

‘Cause where I was, was a place where the Indians said they lived. And that’s kind of why I was going there. And I said, wow, maybe that was a bigfoot, but I didn’t see anything. However, whatever it was fried my starter motor. And we had to hike out thirty five miles the next day.

Wow.

Spend the night and hike out. So. That made a real strong impression on me, right away. I said, geez.. I really didn’t care what everyone else said, I said — even though I didn’t see one, I smelled it, and I said, dang, these guys can, like, emit some kind of force field out of their minds that makes your hair stand up, it can knock your wife unconscious in a split second, and it can blow your starter motor. And I say that’s one of the capabilities at least some of them have. And so that’s why I would beg to differ about the ultrasound theory. I would say, we need a theory that involves electricity and magnetism a bit more!

Yeah. Well, it could have both. It could be that the way that they.. you know how people have said, “It talked inside my mind.” Well now we know that you can use ultrasound to make that appear to happen.

The commonality would be that, whether it’s sound energy or electrical energy, the bigfoot is able to focus it with its mind, is able to control it with its mind somehow. So yes, we could have both. They are both kinds of energy, and it seems that they can focus them with their minds, manipulate them, and do something with them. So, hey, maybe we stumbled onto a new theory here! (Laughing)

Yeah. There’s definitely something weird about bigfoot. I mean I’ve recently spoken on the blog about the strange experience that I had, which is that one ran along in the woods behind me — it was evading a dog, and I don’t think it had seen me and my companion. And it came out, or almost came out into the clearing where we were and then slowed up real fast and turned to run right into the briers. And yet when we went to the briers where it had apparently run, there was no evidence that anything had gone in there. I didn’t see it, I had my head turned the wrong way, and it was gone before I turned around. But my companion did, and right where he said it went — you know, he saw it go there — there’s no evidence that anything had ever gone in there.

That’s another one of their puzzling powers!

That’s right! There’s something weird about them. And I like to speculate about how they might do that..

You know I think you bring up a very interesting point, which is one of my constant themes in life, and that is, when you get close enough to one of these guys.. I mean, basically, when you’ve never had any experiences with them and you’ve never really been up close to them, you can think about them as just, they’re stupid old gorillas of some kind, or mystery apes that you are chasing around. But I think it’s always a matter of time, that when you get close enough to them, that if you’re one of those people that gets out there and encounters them or actually has an experience with them, weird stuff happens. I just think it’s a matter of time before the weird stuff happen to everybody.

Right.

In the beginning, no one thinks they could possibly be weird because, you know, it’s just an animal, like every other animal. And then as time goes on, and as you actually encounter them, and get close, I think it’s inevitable. You know, I think that this is the path that every bigfooter that ever lived is on, unfortunately. They’re all going to have to confront the weird, because it gets weird!

Yeah.

And it’s not easy, you know, it’s not like chasing a beaver.. (laughing) It turns out that it’s not. And so, yeah, I think that when they focus energy with their minds sometimes that they actually produce light from their eyes.

Uh huh.

One of the things that I’ve seen with my own eyes is light come from the eyes of one of these guys. I was in an extremely dark place in the woods, with no light, and green light came out of the eyes. (laughing) At least that’s what it looked like to me!

Right.

And that’s where my logical brain said, “Hmm, there has to be a logical explanation for this.”

Yeah.

I don’t care that if I ever mention it to anyone, they say, “Oh, God, you’ve got to be wrong. It’s the tapetum lucidum of course. Like every other animal that has a reflective eye.”

Yes, people do like to say that!

Everyone explains it away as that, and I’m like, no, there was no light, and the light actually came out of the eye! (laughing)

Right.

So, there you have it. Those experiences happen to you eventually, I think, if you’re fortunate enough, and persistent enough to actually get close enough. There’s no way you can avoid the weirdness.

Yeah. I believe that’s true. I do believe there are a lot of researchers who haven’t experienced anything weird, and especially if they are not the kind who will actually go out in active search of the creature, they might be able to continue to say, no, there’s nothing strange about them. But if you get out there a lot, I think you’re right, your chances of experiencing that weirdness go up. It’s reminded me — you know we’re talking about a couple of the weird things they do. Here’s something a police chief from South Dakota, I think, reported. He and several of his deputies responded to a call that someone saw a bigfoot. And they pursued it. They were riding along on a road, but there’s this big drainage ditch on the side, and he’s got this on his thermal camera. So here’s a guy who has seen one on his thermal camera. He sees it going down into the drainage ditch. So now they know they’ve got it in this drainage ditch. His deputies are coming the other direction, and he gets them to come out and shine their big flashlights down into the ditch. But when they do, they can’t find anything. So he’s seen it go down in there with his thermal camera, but when they bring their heavy lights to this area, there’s nothing there. They can’t find anything.

Well that makes sense to me. There’s a hundred-year argument in Indian country, it’s been going on at least a hundred years, as to whether or not they can turn invisible.

Uh huh.

And, you know, I could go find five Indians that say, yes, they can turn invisible, and I could find five Indians that say, no way! But, once again, my personal experience has shown me that they can turn invisible. I’m convinced that there’s a logical explanation for it. In fact, I’m convinced that there’s a scientific explanation for it. But that makes me a little weird, because.. see, it’s easy, I think, to go fully paranormal. You know, you have these weird experiences and you go, oh my God, they turn invisible! Their eyes light up, oh my God, what am I dealing with here?

Yeah.

For me, I just think there’s got to be a logical explanation. What it has led me to do is revise science. And that’s of course where I get on really thin ice, and I go way, way out in the weeds. And that’s what the large part of the last half of my book is about. Where I try to say, see, part of the problem with understanding bigfoot is that science itself is inadequate.

Uh huh.

Now, I know that very few people are going to come with me when I go on this journey to try to invent a new science, in a bigfoot book yet! Yeah, of course, right?

Right.

However, really I wrote this book for the people who have had some strange experiences and are looking for a logical explanation. Because if this has happened to you, if there’s been an invisible bigfoot that’s telepathically communicated with you, or if you’ve seen the lights come out of the eyes, or any number of things, my book may be useful to you, because I try to fashion a logical explanation for it. I try to say.. one of the problems is we live in an era of reductionist and mechanist science.

Right.

Where mechanist science is the dominant paradigm right now.

Yeah.

And what that means is that, way back in the 17th century, René Descartes, the famous philosopher, postulated that that the universe was a great machine, and that nothing actually had a soul except the mind of man. The mind of man was separate, but everything else was a machine. And you could understand the universe in terms of chemistry and physics, and that’s all you needed. You could understand life in terms of chemistry and physics. And we treat today, microbiology, and the study of DNA — and the study of DNA is certainly the hot scientific field of the moment.. and there’s a faith. An article of faith — it’s almost a religion — among institutional biologists, that any day now they’re going to be able to understand life just using chemistry and just using physics. And that’s all they need to do it. And they believe they’ll be able to understand awareness, self consciousness, and living beings, and the energy that animates life itself, strictly by looking at things like the Krebs citric acid cycle, etcetera, etcetera.

Uh huh.

I point out that back in the 1920s there was another branch of science that said that living things actually have a life force. Like Star Wars. There was a branch of science that said, “There is a force, Obi Wan!” (laughs)

(laughs) Right!

There is a force behind everything. And these guys got discredited, heavily, by the mechanism school. Really by the 1930s they were pretty much done for and the mechanist modern philosophy came to dominate institutional science and institutional biology in particular. Now, why am I going through this long winded thing? Basically to explain that, see, I don’t think you can understand bigfoot without understanding “The Force”!

Uh huh.

And kids understand this. Adults have a tough time. When you say to a kid, look, the force is real, and bigfoot is a wookie, basically every kid in the world goes, hey, okay, I get it. You know, and what you’re saying is bigfoot is person like, and there’s things about life that you’re not going to understand with DNA. You may understand a lot about this creature when you get your hands on its DNA, but you’re not going to understand about its awareness, and you’re not going to understand about its self-consciousness, or its intelligence, or its behavior. You’re not going to be able to predict its behavior if its a thinking creature like you and me. I mean, there’s a lot you’re not going to know from getting a DNA sample. A DNA sample may prove to some people that there’s something out there. I postulate that they’re still not going to get their hands on one… but anyhow, it’s through this vitalist kind of view that I start talking about life energy, this energy that cannot be measured using chemistry and physics. Bigfoot is a master of that energy, the energy of awareness itself.

Right.

And this is part of how they a lot of the stuff that they do. They can control your awareness. They can probably hide right in front of you and you can’t see them.

[Note: At this point I wish I had remembered a case I know about that really fits in with what Henry is saying here. There was a picture that came out of Oregon that was taken under really very strange circumstances. The witness who took the picture heard some things, and her dogs were acting like there was something nearby that they did not like, but she couldn’t see anything no matter how hard she looked. She had a camera with her and she took pictures as she spun around 360 degrees. On one of the pictures you can see what looks like, for all the world, a family of gorillas or something like that. They are all reclining, so you don’t see any legs, but you see at least three of them, alert, and looking toward the camera. They look pretty clear in the picture, on a hill, though at some distance away. Yet she had not seen them as she was taking the pictures. She returned a day or so later and took a picture of the same area, and you can’t see anything in that spot that would account for the “family group” that had been there before. Too bad I didn’t mention this during the interview, but I am inserting it here for your consideration, dear reader. Henry continues..]

So they have some really interesting tricks up their sleeves. Some puzzling powers.

Well that reminds me of.. did you ever read the book, the Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy?

I did, once, yes indeed!

Do you remember the “Somebody Else’s Problem” field, or the SEP field, where if you turned on an SEP field and you were inside it, no one would ever see you because their brain would register you as “somebody else’s problem”! (laughing) So they wouldn’t even look at you! And I have wondered if that could be the case when bigfoot appears to disappear.

You know, I wonder about that too, that’s an interesting concept! (laughing) I’ve never applied that concept. I think that might work here!

You know, something like that could be activated via ultrasound. If they can actually do what science is beginning and thinks they are going to be able to do, remotely control a human being using ultrasound, of course they could get you to not notice them. They could be standing there and you wouldn’t notice them if they were able to do that. Or by using some other energy, as long as they can get ahold of your brain and tell your brain what to do, they can disappear without physically disappearing.

Yeah.

That doesn’t explain them disappearing off of a camera, or a thermal camera..

Well, that’s another, you know.. I think they are.. my theory is their mastery of being able to focus energy with their minds, actually lends itself to form a field that reflects no EM (electro magnetic) energy whatsoever, nor does it absorb any EM energy. In other words, it’s like a complete stealth-field. I think they have stealth-technology in their DNA! And they can form a stealth field around themselves that emits no heat, that emits no.. nothing.

Now if they have that — that’s the kind of thing that would make me start thinking that maybe they aren’t a natural life form, but they would be an engineered life form.

See I think they are a natural life form just like we are. I think we co-evolved with us, and we, early on, focused on becoming man the tool-maker. And they early oh as a species focused on developing their psychic powers, and found that that replaced the need for tools.

Yeah they wouldn’t need any tools. Even if they didn’t have the psychic powers, they wouldn’t need any tools. They’re so fast, so strong..

They have better hearing, better vision, they’re stronger, they’re faster, they’re bigger.. all of those things would give them a competitive advantage in a lot of ways, however, they’re non-confrontational. We as a species are very confrontational. And as a species, obviously, they’re not confrontational. We don’t even know if they really exist! So that’s an emotional difference.

Right.

Seems to me that it would be an emotional difference. They have no real.. other than those events you describe, where someone gets a psychic message to get out of here, or go away, you don’t belong here. That is about as confrontational as they get. Of course they do that bluff charge thing. They may be, on occasion.. I don’t want to say that they are not confrontational ever. (laughs) I think there are times when they might seek to run us off.

Yeah, they take care not to put themselves in any physical risk.

They do.

To me it looks like — somebody explained this somewhere.. if you are a large creature, and you don’t have many offspring, it is in your interest to protect your physical body at all costs. I don’t mean the individual’s interest, but the interest of the species. So you might expect them to be cautious like that, being very large and that, at their size, they probably don’t have offspring as often as some of us smaller things do.

That’s interesting. I’ve never heard that. That is interesting. Hmm.. Another biological law is the more north you go, the larger your body is. So polar bears and brown bears are bigger than black bears, etcetera, etcetera.

Right. That has to do with the efficiency of maintaining your core body temperature. The larger you are, the easier it is to maintain your body temperature, from what I recall.

Well that is interesting, the.. I don’t find any modern sighting reports that say they can control your body. But I do find a lot of Indian reports that say they can control your body.

Well, there could be one reason for that that I can think of. And we can use René Dahinden as the example. If he thought that there was.. actually, you knew him later in life and this might have changed, but early on, if there was a whiff of paranormalism or UFO connection in a report, he would just drop it. He wouldn’t even take the report.

Yeah, he was always like that. He.. the thing about René and I was, we were friends. One of the things I did was put $10,000 in his pocket! (laughs)

He liked you a bit after that! (laughs)

He knew I wasn’t a typical paranormal guy. And the other thing is I was part of a hard-core science project, and I kept all my paranormal stuff in the background back in those days. Really, I laid low. I did not advertise the weird stuff for the first, I don’t know.. a long time. And, René, like everybody else, really liked my Indian place name research and all of the history that I found, where I found all the place names where these guys were supposed to live. And then I would dig into the stories for specific places, and I would say, look, this place, that place is where the Indians would say that they lived. And René.. everybody liked that. René liked that. René respected that research. He thought whenever I was going off on my crazy explanations that I was just out of my frikkin’ mind! But he tolerated me because I made solid scientific contributions despite the fact that I was completely crazy. (laughs)

Right.

So we were friends, but he was still not tolerant of that stuff.

Even at the end of his life he wasn’t tolerant of it. So that kind of thing explains..

Well, I have to give him this: he knew there was something psychic going on. He knew they had some kind of psychic power. He did know that at the end of his life. I think it was just like, you know, the hint of it. There was a hint that there was something about that at the end of his journey.

Right. And other researchers wouldn’t even go that far. And I think that what they would do is collect the facts and details that they were interested in, and the other things they would leave aside. And I’ve actually seen this. I was in the BFRO briefly, for about a year. And I did all the reports for Virginia and I looked at all the previous reports from Virginia, even the ones that they’d rejected — because they keep them, even the ones that they’ve rejected. And I found one where a lady had a pretty solid sounding report, and the investigator who wrote the report about it even said that she seemed credible. But she also said that, on a later date, she saw a UFO and she wondered if they could be related. And because she had made that connection, the investigator would take it no further.

That is the bias that has been in place since the beginning. I mean, there’re many many people.. see, this is the mistake that is always made with, quote unquote, “anecdotal evidence.” That you apply some kind of subjective criteria to it. You decide subjectively what’s credible and what’s not. There’s really no other way, because you don’t know, you weren’t there, you’re not the one who saw the UFO, the lady is. You just say, oh well, that’s not credible. So these weird reports have always been filtered. And this has always been one of my big differences.. I have to say that Matt Moneymaker did do a smart thing in the sense that he kept those reports in a garbage file. I commend him for that. I have always said from the beginning that one should take all the reports. Because they’re all anecdotal and any time you apply any subjective criteria to it, you’ve violated the premise of science. Right there!

Yes.

You’ve screwed with the data. You’ve cherry picked. You’ve found what agreed with your point of view and just stuck with that evidence, and discarded anything that disagreed with your point of view. And that’s not scientific. But yet, there’s practical reasons for doing that, in the sense of the BFRO, because you’ve got most people who are not wanting to be part of something that’s kooky like that. And so, if you present a picture that doesn’t have any kookiness in it, it lends itself a lot more to.. presenting a public image that’s fundable, let’s say. I know what I’m talking about! (laughing) I did it before he did.

Right. Well I do think that, probably, most of what we have when we’re looking at our anecdotal evidence.. you know, at least when we’re looking at the vast body of it, most of it has gone through filters. I don’t think that we’ve actually had the discipline to just write down what the people say and leave it that way. I could be wrong, because that’s..

I think you’re right. I think.. well, oddly enough, Raw Crowe did just write down what the people said. “Make sure you have your skepticals on,” was Ray’s line all the time. But in the The Track Record, the newsletter of the Western Bigfoot Society, Ray Crowe didn’t apply any filter, he was really straight about that. And I commend him because he was the one guy who said, I don’t care what you say. However, even given that, one time something really weird happened to me, and I told Ray Crowe, and he looked in my face and said, “You’re a liar!” (laughs)

Yeah?

So, even Ray, Mr. Objective..

Do you care to share with us what that weird thing was that Ray couldn’t accept?

Yeah. I will. And most people won’t be able to accept this, but this is the sort of experience that I’m talking about that leads down the primrose path..

Yeah.

My wife and I were in the coast range, where I live now. And we were on the Hallem River, which is in fact a place that many old stories of the wild man take place. This is a long time, legendary area for hundreds of years with the Indians. So I was, oddly enough, going on about the first three minutes of the universe. Because modern physics had made some recent discoveries. This was actually in the spring of 1994. So there was some really neat theoretical physics stuff that they were finding out with the telescopes and the atom smashers, the cyclotrons.. My wife was actually like, “Hey, tell me about that.” So I was giving her the theory of the Big Bang. And I’m not a physicist or anything, but I was just giving her my layman’s “bozo” theory of the Big Bang and the first three minutes of the universe, and what happened. And I had just started doing this, when suddenly.. there was a bush about 30’ away from us, about 10’ high, 10’ around. And this deep laughter came out of the bush, really laughing really hard. And it seemed to be like a Hollywood gorilla laughter. It was a real deep chest, and a really strong laughter. And this laughter occurred.. it started the microsecond I stopped talking. And I looked at my wife and I said, “Wow, who’s that laughing at me from that bush?” And as I said that phrase, the laughter stopped on a dime as I began to actually say that, and at the end of that phrase, the laughter started again. So, I said, “Is that bigfoot laughing at me?” Because, believe it or not, it was surreal, like a cartoon. It seemed like Hollywood gorilla laughter. This deep chest laughter. And as I said the “i” of “is,” the laughter stopped. And as I said the “e” of “me,” the laughter started again. And it was happening back and forth like this for about five minutes. And I would say, “I think that is! I think he’s laughing at me!” And the laughter would start and stop. And I said, “I wonder if he’s laughing at my physics?” And each time I would say something like this, the laughter would laugh harder.

Uh huh!

And so, I’m like, “I think he is laughing at me and my physics!” And it was laughing hysterically! And so, suddenly it stopped. It stopped, and dead silence. I was just stunned. My wife and I didn’t move for ten minutes. I mean we just stood there, and then we said, hey, let’s go see what’s in that bush. We were kind of a little freaked out still, but we hadn’t heard anything or, we had never seen a branch move or anything in the bush. We walked over to the bush and there was nothing there. And there was no trace of anything either. Not any disturbed soil or footprints or branches broken, nothing at all. And so I was just, you know, flabbergasted. Now that’s the story that I told Ray Crowe, and he said “You’re a liar!” And I said, well I can understand how anyone telling this story would encounter some resistance from any rational person!

Right! That is a strange one. And I especially like how it is like, you know, like when you talk into a phone, the phone will mute when you stop talking so that the people listening to you won’t have to listen to a bunch of static.. it’s like a.. what do you call that? It’s like a little trigger. Every time you would stop talking, the trigger would come on and it would laugh — that seems super human.

Yeah, I don’t know what that’s called. You know, as a drummer we call that call and response. Being the person going through the experience, I have to say that it was happening at the speed of thought. This laughter knew when I would speak and when I would not speak. It knew the micro-second when I would start and stop.. It was really.. Oh, I think it’s a gate. I think you’re talking about a gate.

Yeah, a gate.

You’re talking about gating in recording. And, the thing is, ironically — and this is part of the reason even in 1994 that I went down the path that I did. Ray Crowe called me a liar, however, I had Indian friends who said to me, “Yeah, you know, something like that happened to me!” And I said, “Really..?” (laughs)

Huh.

And they were of the opinion that bigfoot was a tribe of Indians with psychic powers that could turn invisible. But, well, that’s really at odds with what white man is thinking over here. And they were like, well, white man has never believed us. (laughing) White man doesn’t believe you when you tell him these stories. And I said, ‘That’s right. You are absolutely right about that.” And once it happens to you — and it happened to my wife as well. Which, I always say, I was very fortunate because my wife understood me and.. my wife of all people had no trouble believing me. Everyone else might not have, but my wife saw it with her own eyes too. So I was very lucky. I always say, this quest for bigfoot can lead to a lot of relationship stress if only one person is a bigfoot obsessed freak.

Yeah, but if you’ve both seen it, then you’ve got something to talk about!

Yeah, and she was — mark my words, let me defend her because I have impugned her. She was never the obsessed maniac I was. She was always a lot more detached and interested in other things. But she did understand why I was so fascinated! (laughs) She did know that. She’s a cat judge and she’s very interested in cats. But she did understand my obsession. And that I really really really wanted to learn more. I backed off of that in time. Part of what happened to me was, once I sort of got a workable theory that helped give me a logical explanation, that was good for me. Because that was my goal. Unlike others, I just wanted to understand. How could they do that?

Right.

How could the invisible bigfoot laugh at me from the bush with telepathic power? And why did he laugh at me because of my lame physics about the Big Bang? That’s the question I had. (laughs) Other people have questions like, “Are they real or not!” (laughs)

Yeah.

I was way past the, “Are they real?” point! I was on the, are they really laughing at me because my physics was lame?

Well did you ever have an experience where you felt like you were having a conversation with them?

Oh, yes. Later. You know, my.. I have felt their presence many times. Well, many isn’t the right word. A number of times in the last fifteen years. And I’ve had some really strange conversations with them. Believe it or not, my wife is better able to communicate with them than I am. But she’s an animal communicator in the first place. She talks to cats. She’s like a cat whisperer.

Oh really?

It seems that her cat whispering ability helps her in communicating with bigfoot! (laughs)

I see!

Yeah. I admire my wife’s ability to do that, but yeah. Certainly I’ve had conversations with them. And they are very strange!

Do they tell you anything that would be useful?

No, they are very strange things. One time one said, “Find the gold.” And I said, “Find the gold? You mean like go out and go looking for gold in the woods?” (laughing) I don’t get it, I’m not sure! Did he mean, literally turn into a miner and go out prospecting? What did he mean? I don’t know. Another time one said, “Eyes in the wood.” Not, “Eyes in the woods,” but “Eyes in the wood.” And I said to myself, well, that’s interesting. That could be useful. Because an Indian had said to me once, when I was.. I bugged a lot of Indians, because I’m part Indian, and I was working for the tribes, so I would just annoy them. (laughs)

Yeah?

And this one guy said, “Count the trees.” He said when you are looking for these guys, count the trees when you go down the trail, and then count the trees when you come back up the trail. And I thought, oh, that’s an interesting tip. And I thought about that one telepathic phrase I got, “Eyes in the wood,” and I thought, hey, maybe that’s a reference to them looking like trees sometimes, you know? I mean I kind of think they might have been hinting at that. So that was something that was semi-useful when I added it up with what this Indian said. I wonder if they can do that? I suspect they can, make us think they are a tree.

You know, you might have just solved a mystery for me.. I recorded something very strange in Ohio. People have listened to it and it has similarities to some of the sounds on the Sierra Sounds CDs. So maybe it was bigfoot that I recorded. But something happened that night that later on I wasn’t able to square up. I took my microphone and I put it behind this really large tree. I mean the tree was huge, or at least that’s the way it looked to me that night. I remember saying that I’d always be able to find that tree because it was so much bigger than all the others. As it happened, putting it behind that tree turned out not to be the best thing because it rejected some of the sound as the creature I recorded walked around to an area behind the tree. But when I went back later in the daytime, I could find the tree, but it was only half the size that it had seemed that night.

..that’s strange!

Yeah! And, you know, when they started doing their squawking, it was right after I walked out of the woods to go sit down. So perhaps I had walked right up next to one and it was doing this “eyes in the wood” thing. Maybe it just looks so much like a tree if it doesn’t move that I didn’t notice it, but you’d think I would have smelled something, because I was right next to the tree. It has always puzzled me. Why did that tree look twice it’s actual size in the dark? You know, I did have a headlamp on so I had light to see with. But when I went back in the full light of day, the tree is half the size I thought it was. I mean in girth. It was as tall as it should have been, but it was only half as wide in girth as I thought that night. Now that could be a perceptual thing, but it has always struck me as odd. Maybe another one of these odd things that happen when you are dealing with bigfoot!

Well when you get close is when.. you know, when you get all those reports, “I saw bigfoot cross the road,” they are not really close, but when you’re close like that, what you’re talking about, yeah, that’s when some strange things happen. I advise people to really pay attention. Just like you did. Because when you really pay attention, there are anomalies that are interesting! (laughs) But I really do think that anomalies really do contain the seed of true understanding. See, I don’t think.. I’m a lone eagle, and I basically think that we’re dealing with a flesh and blood creature that has puzzling powers, but that these powers can be understood with vitalism and other.. let’s say other forms of discarded science from the 19th century.

Right.

Yeah, that’s my basic thing. But I think that, like, their ability to.. I think they do have the ability to either make us think we’re seeing a tree, or either merge with the tree in some way.. somehow they are able to do that, and I think that’s really interesting. Maybe when he hugs the tree close, he looks just like a tree. There’s a lot of ways to explain it away, but I think they’ve got some puzzling powers of camouflage. I’m not a pure paranormal guy by any means. Because I think we will, as humans, will be able to understand how he did that one day.

Well you and I are about the same there. The only place where we might diverge is that I don’t know much about the discarded science that you are talking about, and I think that quantum mechanics and the way that science is beginning to see that puzzling things emerge from the way the universe just seems to work. And I think that maybe our answer will come from that, but that may be the same thing more or less.

It’s very similar. What the physicists are finding now — non-locality, they are finding that sub-atomic particles are connected in some way that we can’t understand yet despite the fact that they are heading away from each other at the speed of light, and the fact that they are far apart. Some how, atoms on the moon are still connected with atoms here on earth if they once came from earth, they are still somehow connected. Non-locality has been proven by physics, and we really haven’t figured out how that works.

Right.

And I think that the exploration of the quantum flux, as they call it, the idea that there’s a cloud of virtual particles behind this real world that we see and perceive is really similar to where I come from with my crazy vitalism. I kind of think that cloud of virtual particles is the same thing as the life force, more or less. Let’s say they’re analogous. I mean the quantum model is cool, but.. I diverge at Maxwell. I think everything beyond Maxwell, other than Tesla and a couple of others is erroneous. I think that the problem with quantum mechanics, as a layman, you know, I’m just a schmoe.. the problem is that they’ve missed things about the structure of electric and magnetic fields. And they actually missed things about electricity and magnetism, and that’s why they can’t understand gravity, because they’ve missed some fundamental stuff about electricity and magnetism. I find that I’m a lone eagle saying that! All of the real scientists out there, unlike Mr. Layman Bigfoot Chaser, me, out here throwing rocks at the window from across the street.. they are leaning towards quantum mechanics as the, you know, they call it the standard model. It is the dominant paradigm of physics today.

Yeah.

So I know I’m not going to win a lot.. but what I find is that when people start to have strange experiences that go beyond what quantum mechanics can offer as an explanation, that’s when they might be open to a little more of the weird stuff that I propose.

Right. Well it’s definitely the case that the we don’t understand the universe very well yet. I mean people have this idea that scientists know everything. But if you actually delve into it, you find out that they know very little. And they are always finding out that they were wrong about what they thought they knew!

There are holes in their models, yes. For one thing, they don’t understand life, actually, yet.

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Photo credits:

– The Image in the preview is a screen capture from the movie Letters from the Big Man.
– Mount St. Helens and Nose of Spirit Lake by David Fulmer via Flickr
– Henry Franzoni by Sam Beebe via Flickr

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